The Sound of Colour
Join Colour Designer Sarah Gottlieb as she talks to cultural and creative leaders about the most influential colours in their lives and work. Through insightful conversations you hear about the meaning and psychology of colours through the guest's personal story about their own creative work.
In each episode, we ask guests to talk about their passion for colour and where it comes from. We review a significant piece of our guest’s work where colour has played an important role, and also where they find inspiration – ending each episode with the musical element "the sound of a colour”.
Be prepared for laughter, tears and everything in between.
The Sound of Colour
Raw Color - From Beetroot Juice to IKEA: A Colourful Journey
What if the secret to unlocking your creative potential lies in the rich, natural hues of vegetables?
Join me on a vibrant journey in this episode with Christoph Brach and Daniera ter Haar from Raw Color, the visionary Dutch design studio known for their pioneering work with colour. From their early experiments with beetroot juice to designing products that seamlessly blend graphic design, product design, and photography for big global brands like IKEA, Christoph and Daniera reveal how their unique approach to colour has shaped their studio’s identity and bridged diverse creative fields. Discover their thoughts on the emotional resonance of colour and the power of spontaneity in design.
In this episode we talk about the historical significance of colour and its emotional impact on our environments. Raw Color tells us about the importance of embracing the journey and discovering unexpected ideas along the way in a design process. Learn how playful design choices in your home can foster cozy, safe havens that resonate with personal expression. And last but not least Christoph and Daniera advocates for breaking free from the constraints of neutral tones to introduce individuality and creativity through colour.
Ever wondered how a colour can be translated into sound?
The episode ends with the musical experiment “The Sound of a Colour”, this time by Los Angeles-born singer-songwriter Devon Williams, who captures the essence of ochre yellow in music.
For more color inspiration follow @sarah__gottlieb and this episode's guest @raw_color_ and the episode's audio oracle @devonwilliamssongs
This episode is sponsored by Montana Furniture.
SHOWNOTES
/ Explore the IKEA Collection ‘Tesammans’ by Raw Color here
/ Constantin Brancusi - See more about the Romanian sculpture Christoph talks about here
/ Interesting Forbes article on why data isn’t always the truth
/ Daniera mentions Belgian fashion designer Dries van Noten, famous for his sense of colour. See
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The Sound of Colour is produced and hosted by Sarah Gottlieb, with music by Matt Motte.
The host
Sarah Gottlieb is a Copenhagen-based designer and art director specialising in colour and spatial design. Known for transforming environments through innovative use of colour, she is dedicated to creating public spaces that inspire connection and a deeper appreciation for design.
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For images and information from each episode go to the Podcast website
Hi, my name is Sarah Gottlieb and you are listening to The Sound of Color. I'm a designer and my work focuses on integrating unexpected colours into spatial design. In this podcast, you will meet a series of influential guests in the fields of design and architecture, who will all share their personal stories and expert knowledge on and about colours. Together, we will delve into the magic of colour and its significance in the world of design.
Christoph Brach:If we teach people to live in gray and white environments and we offer gray and white products, of course they're gonna keep on buying this.
Sarah Gottlieb:The Sound of Color is brought to you in collaboration with Montana Furniture. I'm very excited about my podcast sponsor because Montana Furniture is a part of creating more playful spaces by bringing colors and high quality furniture into private homes, offices, universities, boardrooms, restaurants, lobbies and concert halls. So, as you can hear, they are just as big color nerds as me. Hi, danira and Christoph.
Christoph Brach:Hello.
Daniera teer Haar:Nice that you will have us for the interview.
Sarah Gottlieb:We really enjoy to be in your podcast. The guest in this episode is Dutch design studio Raw Color.
Christoph Brach:We also didn't have this master plan, so it was kind of learning by doing right, like each step, but also believing in what we did was what we found interesting and important.
Sarah Gottlieb:Raw Color is an Eindhoven based studio that blends the fields of graphic design, photography and product design. The studio was founded by the designers Christoph Brach and Daniela Tehar, crafting everything from textiles to brand identity to a homeware collection for IKEA. They mix product design and graphic expression with colors in whole new ways. Perhaps no contemporary studio's work has pushed color into as defining a role as the Dutch duo. In this episode I talk with Christoph and Deniera about how trying to adapt a global design solution with colors is not possible, that you always should design from a personal point of view, how Ikea was their first client to say could you use more colors? This and much more is what you will hear about in this episode of the Sound of Color, but first of all, we're going to hear where Raw Color got their love of colors from originally.
Daniera teer Haar:So if we go back to where the studio started 17 years ago so me and Christopher just graduated from the Design Academy we got asked to join an exhibition about nature and design and for that we set up an installation about natural pigments from beetroot. The thought was okay, what if we can get the color out of a beetroot and bring it into a poster? So we made an installation 100% Juice it's called and it's first of all a white poster. You put in the beetroot on top to the juicer and slowly the color appears and of course, every poster will be different and it's a nice interactive installation. It got a lot of publicity afterwards and from there on we set up a big research about color and natural colors. In this case it's vegetable colors, so we started mixing them peatwood with pumpkin or yellow paprika and we got a huge color palette of all these natural shades. This project actually is called raw color, yeah, and in the end also came our name. So if we go way back to the starting point, this is how we started off.
Christoph Brach:Of course, already in school we had a love for color, but during the years this got more and more clear that this is something we love to work with yeah, so that's a bit how it all started well, maybe, if I may add to, maybe this is kind of the historical you know loop, but if I kind of analyze it with some distance, you know, like if I would be flying in the air looking at us back then, at that time of course we didn't wake up and thought like, hey, let's work on color or spend the next 17 years working on color.
Christoph Brach:So this is something that really developed during the years, also through this first project, you know, it became almost a self-fulfilling prophecy because we investigated on that and and we got requests based on it and also on this name. But I think what is really nice that it happened and turned out the way it did is that we both, already during our education, worked very interdisciplinary. I studied graphic design in Germany before I came to the Design Academy in Eindhoven, wanted to become a product designer, experimented a lot on that. Danira did a lot of textile work also already on color and styling. That there was more.
Christoph Brach:The department that photography we both did yeah to to document our projects and I found it, when I think back from a personal point of view, I found it extremely challenging to commit to a discipline, to say, hey, I'm gonna be a product designer or gonna be a graphic designer.
Christoph Brach:I was really stressed about I'm gonna make business cards for the rest of my life, you know oh no so in that, in that sense, color really enabled us to work so widely because it is present in all the design disciplines, right? If you talk about interior, if you talk about the product, if you talk about graphics, animation, I mean, you can do everything black and white, but if you use color, color is present in all these disciplines and that is so great that it's. You know, color is so visual and and that, yeah, has been an ongoing love affair in that sense that we're not fed up with it and we don't need to commit to the disciplines, but we committed to color color is the cornerstone of daniera and christoph's work and it's almost like they created their own language.
Sarah Gottlieb:So I'm excited to hear what color they choose for the recurring sound experiment the sound of a color. So the experiment involves that you two choose a color and then I get a musician to compose the sound of that color. So I want to ask you which color do you want to hear the sound of?
Daniera teer Haar:yeah, I I have ochre yellow yeah exactly that's.
Christoph Brach:That would be also something I was uh thinking of this kind of uh yeah, indeed like a bit. Yeah, how do you say muddy?
Daniera teer Haar:Mustard.
Christoph Brach:Yeah, mustardy, ochreish yellow, so not too bright, not too dark, not too saturated, but still yellow and not brown. So kind of a light light but sophisticated tone.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah, and where did this color come from?
Daniera teer Haar:It's, I think, a color we use more often. So, like years ago, we did the colors of the Santa & Cole lamp; lamp, the ribbon, so it's a weave of textile and I think that's also a beautiful color how it turned out. But then it's made up with different shades of yarn. But I think that the mustard yellow, or mostaza in spanish I think it's a color that can be combined quite well with many other colors. So you can do, of course, more yellow shades, but you can also put it next to a light blue, for example, can be really beautiful. So I think it's. It's a nice color that's not very expressive by itself, but it can be a very yeah, you say, but also depends on the context.
Christoph Brach:You know like it can you know if you put it next to a very saturated blue, you know it suddenly also pulls up. So it's also and also like that. You know the positivity of the color. It's a positive color, it's yellow, it's optimistic, but it's not too screaming, it's, uh, quietly optimistic. So I like that about it and and I think also maybe also probably you will know it from your work when you flip through a color book, I think the the yellow color group. It's a very sensitive color group because if you add a little bit of another tone it directly changes the color. So you get quickly jumps from, you know the very saturated lemony kind of yellow and then a little drip of that and then suddenly you get this jump to almost like light browns. So I also, like you have to sometimes it's quite a complex color.
Daniera teer Haar:Especially to pick it out of a color color scheme, it's sometimes hard to find the right yellowish can be a bit too green, can be a bit too brown, yeah, too yellow, yeah yeah, but I think overall, in all our works graphic work, or textiles, or the products we have ourselves yellow is always part of it. So I think in that sense, it's still a color that's important to us.
Christoph Brach:Yeah, and I would be very curious how it would sound like.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah me too. I want to just one last question in this kind of thing, still going with the whole idea that colors affect us on all our senses if you had to say that this ochre yellow was a taste, what would it taste like?
Christoph Brach:um, in my perception, I would link it obviously to the more fruity lemony yellowish. So a little bit sour, but it's also a warm color, so that there's also not just the sour side of it.
Daniera teer Haar:So maybe, yeah, yeah, I think there's still a bit of sweet in, but I think in general, while preparing a nice meal, it's important to have a bit of both. So I think also that's in in the color of the ochre yellow that it's a bit of this and a bit of that and you mix it and you try to find the right balance it's actually funny that you ask for it, because when, when we have conversations about color, I I quite regularly also do this reference about tastes.
Christoph Brach:You know, when you put a palette together, what kind of flavors do you have in the palette? Like deep one, light ones, yeah, more rich flavors, more you know the sugary ones, so that can be quite. To me it's also quite a good reference that works with color and taste yeah, I think also it's.
Sarah Gottlieb:It's a bit, if you have a love for cooking, it's also like a bit like making the perfect vinaigrette. It's like ochre yellow yeah, yeah exactly there we have the, the combination of a bit sour, sweet taste yeah, exactly, okay, well, um, I'm gonna take this to my musician and then we'll hear what he can come up with very curious yes, I'm curious about what the musician of this episode will say about ochre yellow.
Sarah Gottlieb:in this episode, I have invited the Los Angeles born and raised singer-songwriter, Devon Williams, to throw himself into my sound experiment. After spending his early career in a variety of bands that played a variety of styles, devin Williams focused on a solo approach that blends jangling guitars with warm synths and easygoing vocals. Devon Williams has produced four solo albums. His most recent one was praised by all music as reaching that level of pop genius. He is currently working on his fifth album, but today I have asked him to create the sound of a color. Hi, devin, hi, how are you? Well, I can say thank you very much for taking part in this experiment, the sound of a color.
Sarah Gottlieb:In this episode, my guest is Christoph and Daniera from Raw Color, and they are like a multidisciplinary studio based in the Netherlands, where I would say they do a lot of things but, like, color is at the core of everything that they do. So when I asked them to pick a color that they wanted to hear the sound of, they pick the color that is present in a lot of their work, but also in this specific project that we talk about in the podcast, and the project that we talk about is this vast collection that they did for IKEA, and the color that they would like to hear the sound of is drum roll ochre yellow your reaction.
Devon Williams:My reaction is um, I mean, okay, so yellow is not one of my favorite colors.
Devon Williams:I mean, I don't, I think that's not your favorite color. No, no, I think what my favorite colors are brown and this is actually kind of like a.
Sarah Gottlieb:Actually they said this is like like. This is kind of like a brown yellow.
Devon Williams:It's like it's not brown, but it's like a yellow brown yeah oh no, it's a brown yellow, sorry no, no, I, I look, if we look it up and just so that we can no, but I have a picture I have a picture of the color.
Sarah Gottlieb:Okay, here it is okay, let's look at.
Devon Williams:I mean, look, I don't want to. I'm not too opinionated on this, but like when I think of yellow, like this is what I think of.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah, like a banana, a lemon and a rubber duck.
Devon Williams:Yellow is not like this happy thing for me.
Sarah Gottlieb:For me it has like a superficially but maybe it's because you have, from the stage, the smiley face like acid.
Devon Williams:Yeah, yeah, that's what I was thinking of. That too, I don't know. I'm thinking of like artificial flavors, or maybe that's the LA thing too. Is artificial sun or artificial like superficial or shallow or whatever. Um, I don't want to go too like Devin on you because I feel like I have like harsh feelings and I don't want, definitely don't want to say this is your interpretation.
Sarah Gottlieb:You can go all harsh Devon If you want.
Devon Williams:But I don't know how I'm going to interpret that Right Like mustard yellow.
Sarah Gottlieb:Like it's almost that kind of like you know, like harvest season, yeah that's the thing, because corn is like Kind of like Turning from green to yellow and then it kind of it's like a light brown.
Devon Williams:Because right now it's we're getting into autumn, right, that's true, and I'm this is my favorite season.
Sarah Gottlieb:Wow, but then how can you?
Devon Williams:not like yellow, because that's like the season of yellow and autumn ochre, yellow, brown and. I'm excited, but then when I say yellow, I think I just have these like hangups with yellow, because I'm excited about autumn and it is an autumn color, but when you put it like it looks so flat, when we look at it like this, but if you put it on a leaf, yeah, something else Now we're talking, I just don't want to hear yellow, I don't want to like.
Sarah Gottlieb:What if you had to go on a blind date with mustard yellow?
Devon Williams:I would like walk in and see them and leave. I would be like, oh man, I can't do this Because. I know in my heart, I'm not a mustard. Okay so maybe, if it was like yellow.
Sarah Gottlieb:Like what color is that? What yellow is that In the painting in the house? I would say that's kind of like quite close to like a lemon yellow but like maybe like an unripe lemon Kind of have a bit more green in it. Yes, if I saw that I would be like wow let's talk more let's talk, but maybe that's quite good that you're gonna actually kind of make like a I'm gonna have to. It's like a breakup song before you even went out yeah, but actually I want to make it work.
Devon Williams:I'm gonna like I, I saw them and I'm walking up, but now I'm going back in, I'm I'm gonna give it a shot.
Sarah Gottlieb:I'm excited yeah, that that's good. Well, okay, maybe just then to talk about like more like you know, what's your main when you create music, what's your main kind of approach to creating something new?
Devon Williams:Just to play. I'm a guitar player, so I like to just play the guitar first and then I'll sing while I'm playing guitar. So it's never I have no intentions, so it's usually just sitting around and playing. Yeah, I think I'll. What I'll do is like really sit with the color visually and maybe just like sit in a room with my guitar and look at the color and not think of and jam.
Devon Williams:Yeah, I'll just jam with it, I'll set up a microphone in front of the thing and be like come on, Mustard jam. Yeah, mustard jam.
Sarah Gottlieb:Okay, devin, I just want to say that sounds exciting.
Devon Williams:Yeah, I look forward to talking to you again.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah, me too, and look forward to hearing your version of Ochre Yellow.
Devon Williams:Yeah, I'm going to try to enjoy it.
Sarah Gottlieb:Thanks, bye, bye. I'm excited to hear what Deon will create for the sound of ochre yellow. In the meantime, we're going to talk about a recurring question in the podcast, so I ask each guest that I have with me on the show to talk about a project or a piece of work that has had a significant colorful meaning to them, where colors are an important part of the project, and today we're going to talk about your collaboration with IKEA Tessamons. Can you just make a short description to the listeners what this project is all about?
Daniera teer Haar:So the Tessamons collection is a collection of products we collaborate with IKEA, and it's created for small living, so the objects are quite small as well, and one of the starting points for us was directly also to use color in this.
Daniera teer Haar:Well, one of the starting points for us was directly also to use color in this. It's a combination of different type of products, like from glass to textiles and metal pieces, and, of course, all of that also to bring more color into your home. But it's also about for example, there's a clock in it, an hour. And it's also about the movement and there's a beautiful decoration of a mobile that's hanging in your living room or wherever you place it, and moving by the wind. So also there again.
Christoph Brach:So it's also nice to see the color and movement as well yeah, and to add, tessamans, it's the, the local swedish dialect from smallland area, and it means together. So that sense it's also the togetherness of color, because we also believe that a color is never on itself, it's never alone. You always see it in a context of another color. You know, even it's a white room where you exhibit the color, or if there's a table with with a colorful glass on top of it, it's always the combination and that's that's what we also tried to put in the pieces, and the same what the nira said like it's the interaction of the moving pieces, but it's also the interaction between the product and the user and the objects and the home of the people yeah, I think also with that whole project.
Sarah Gottlieb:I want to ask you like you, obviously there's a huge color palette and lots of color combinations within range, and both on different materials like glass, textiles and metal. But what is important to you as designers when you create colors for a big commercial and versatile project like this?
Daniera teer Haar:Yeah, I think it's not that we were very busy with the commercial part of it. Of course. What's now very great to see is that it's a global collection, so you can buy it all over the world. And now, of course, on Instagram, social media, you find it back everywhere and how everyone is using it and how everyone is bringing it in their own context, which for us is really great to see, because then suddenly, of course, something bringing it in their own context which for us is uh, is really great to see, because then suddenly, of course, something you created in your own studio is going all over the world and and and everywhere. It's still a match and I think that was also quite nice to see. If we talk now, for example, about the rock, it's one of the biggest uh item in the collection. I mean, for a rock, still a small version, but it's quite colorful. A lot of colors are used.
Christoph Brach:I think there must be like six to eight colors in the rock.
Daniera teer Haar:But if you see it in all these different photos that people took from it, it's in every home. It's a match. So I was sometimes a bit afraid for the rock. I felt like, oh my God, maybe it's too much color, can people handle this? But now you feel that how people are using it and placing it in their homes, that somehow also they always adapt to where they are in.
Christoph Brach:And that was for us also very learnful to see that still, while using a lot of color, it can match almost with every home? Yeah, but there's a dutch saying that, or I don't know if it's dutch saying actually, but it's uh, it says that uneven is even. You know like it's.
Christoph Brach:It's in that sense, when you it says, or the meaning to to me, like when you try to align things too much and they just not align, it doesn't look right. So you can better, you know, don't align them and let things jump out to not get into this gray zone. Is it perfectly aligned or not? And actually, when we look back at that process of the rock, we also had initially another design which was like a rock that had more like warm tones, like red and yellows and a bit of pink, and so because we initially thought let's don't make it too crazy Before, this was the design of the blanket, and that's why we printed it out.
Christoph Brach:Yeah, when we reviewed the prototypes at the IKEA headquarters and then suddenly during the conversation somebody threw it at the ground the initial blanket design and then suddenly we replaced other items of the collection because that blanket had so many colors, and we thought actually it works because it doesn't take sides. You know, it's not, it doesn't try to align, it's not. Let's take the warm tones or let's take the cool ones, or let's be very neutral in somebody's home. So actually by not aligning, you're maybe even better aligning. You know what I mean, what I want to say.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah, For me, colors are almost like each their own personality, and I think when you put colors together, the colors are making a new conversation, and a color is never a color on its own. It only kind of almost exists in the relation to other colors.
Sarah Gottlieb:What I'm thinking about when I look at this rock is also that it, because of the many array of colors, it kind of always have a different conversation depending on what home it's in yeah, exactly yeah, I quite like the idea that that it's that the colors get their own life when it kind of moves into different tones yeah, and I mean also like, of course there's there's not a religion of how we do it, that everybody should do it.
Christoph Brach:Everybody should do it their own way. But I mean just looking at ourself, for example, if how we uh constructed, or how to say how we grew maybe that's a better word our house and our interior, we never made an interior plan. Let's put that color and made a color palette, and this and that and the table is the same color than the curtains. You know it's, it's really a collection and a collage of things. So that sense, I I do have the feeling that we anyway live in a world that's planned until the micro details and sometimes we should just things let them happen. For example, also when we talk now about collecting objects and how this grows into a house that's actually beautiful and not supposed to match. And it's the same when we collect inspiration for project images online, whatever.
Christoph Brach:Sometimes you collect them and you don't know why you choose them. You know there's something intuitively that attracts you to this image. You drag it into a folder. You might not use it in the end, but maybe later when you look in the project, this photo or this image makes total sense in its context. You know, like that, that's a bit of things, that that, yeah, you know we shouldn't maybe plan everything, because it doesn't allow any spontaneity and any any room for intuition anymore daniele and christoph want to be spontaneous and playful with their colors, but why do they think it is important to have colors in our home?
Daniera teer Haar:yeah, why is it? But I mean, of course, for everyone it should be their own decision. But I think still, if you now maybe more again, if you assume a bit back, if you go back in history, then overall often homes did had a lot of color, so most homes were colored outside, but also from the inside. If you go back in nature, so if when we didn't have houses, there's hardly anything that's white, I mean you have some white flowers, snow is white, a cloud feels white, but overall, like like trees, grass, sand, water, nothing is white. And somehow now we are more and more into this drifting off of all these things that we normally were surrounded with.
Daniera teer Haar:Yeah, and of course, then still we use now colors that were also maybe not all coming from nature or from the outside, but still I think it's actually more cozy when we use more color. And, of course, when you think about your home and your habitat, it is nice that it feels like something you would like to stay in for a long time. And and, of course, white sometimes. I mean we also still have some white walls and and white can also be always still the a4 white paper, where everything is still possible, so sometimes it's maybe more convenient for people to make to use white, because then they don't need to make a decision yet. And man, sometimes, of course, decisions are pretty hard, and then it's maybe easier to say let's, let's keep it white, but um no, but, but it's true.
Christoph Brach:I think also when, when you refer to like, I mean, how far do we go back in history? But then then, like these old dutch farmhouses, for example, jump into my mind, with woodwork inside and they had like beautiful lacquers of deep greens, deep reds, yellows, whatever.
Daniera teer Haar:Some colors had a function to let insects stay out, and of course some colors back then also came more because of a certain reason Preserve the wood, exactly came more because of a certain reason Preserve the wood, exactly.
Christoph Brach:But I mean then, when we look back, what have been the first white places that came in human existence?
Christoph Brach:It's probably been hospitals or clean, you know, rooms that had to be like very clean and and then no, no, there's no dirt and high level of hygiene, hygienic.
Christoph Brach:So it's funny that we that're still stuck in this mode and we want to surround ourselves in this kind of environment that refer to this super high cleaning rooms. And it's also interesting I read a while ago an article in a Dutch newspaper about the Dutch architect Rietveld and of course there was this style movement with Rietveld and Mondrian and they really been the advocates of this white and primary color palette that still is resonating in so many people's homes. But they really took it as a revolution and a counter idea of all these brown homes at that time. Then it was really the dark oak and it was very deep and brown and they wanted to inject this freshness. And I do have this feeling that we are maybe at the moment that we also need that, that revolution back then. What had happened that we maybe need to return a bit to coziness and sensuality in when it comes to spaces I think, yeah, I think you're right.
Sarah Gottlieb:I think we're living in a time where we for a while have been almost overstimulated by, you know, the coming of the mobile phone and the internet in your pocket and all of a sudden your society has grown to a global society instead of your local community. So I hope that that's going to be a part of that revolution to making us embrace colors in our home, because I agree with what you guys are saying, that colors is just a part of making a home a cozy place.
Daniera teer Haar:And you know you're saying well, it's important because a home is a place where you want to be and feel cozy and safe and nice, and especially now with, of course, the world being very unsteady everywhere, and that at least the spot where you go home to is something where you feel comfortable. But but yeah, overall, of course, it's always up to the person. So it's not that we just want to be the color Bible of everyone should use color, but I think it would be great that people try to dare a bit more. Maybe that's a good starting point, and I think that's also, of course, what the summons tries to do. I mean, already in the whole IKEA collection.
Daniera teer Haar:Of course, we had a lot of reviews on that, and, while the process took over more than three years, we had a lot of meetings, of course, and then sometimes you went to the collection of what IKEA has right now and also all those type of brands I mean not only IKEA, but also a lot of other brands. They go more and more into the gray, beige, white, black and it's also to be more safe, you know, because that's something that's always selling. So, yeah, so, of course also those furniture brands are also part of it.
Christoph Brach:How people, in the end, create their own homes, yeah, and of course, we live in a world that's what you just said strongly relating on electronic technology, on data. So probably there are a lot of data-driven decisions being made that probably white and gray is selling for the majority of the sales. But I also do believe yeah, you know, data is not always the only truth. You know, because it has to do with conditioning. You know, and we keep on repeating in the the same self-fulfilling prophecy, if, if we teach people to to live in gray and white environments and we offer gray and white products, of course they're gonna keep on buying this yeah, so some people have to dare to to break the chain and and it's the same when it comes to automotive, to other things.
Christoph Brach:I mean look back in the 50s. You know there has been a huge variety when it came to cars. Two shapes, two colors, yeah you know people dared because there was not probably this strong market analyzes and data and we all base it on sale numbers. So there have been people that just trusted on their guts and their intuition, which also probably meant that sometimes you will take a wrong decision and there will be faults and mistakes. That's part of evolution. But you might also hit the bullseye with something that nobody expected.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah.
Christoph Brach:And that's something I see in the world that's less and less common, and you know, that's why all the cars basically look alike when it comes to color, when it comes to shape, branding and so forth.
Sarah Gottlieb:Christoph is right. When I look at cars on the road today, they are all the same Silver, white, gray black. No one stands out, in my opinion. That's a shame, but how can you, as a designer, hold on to the courage to keep using colors in your design?
Daniera teer Haar:It always stays a very emotional thing and that's a strength of using color, and but it can also on the opposite, being the weak point, because everyone has opinion about it. So it's uh, it's quite difficult sometimes. So I think, in that sense, always staying close to what you believe in is good, and doing that and doing that for a long time, um, then it can become, can become your handwriting, and then people also understand more and more what you're doing. So, for example, if we go back again at this, 17 years, and so at one moment we created business cards and then we only said what color that's on it? So it's not. We are doing products, graphics, photography, so it's only the business card says wall color. And back then it was not so super, not so many studios did all these different disciplines, so sometimes it felt a bit like, oh, are people anyway understanding what we believe in? Could be something.
Christoph Brach:And we also didn't, I mean, we also didn't have this master plan, so it was kind of learning by doing. Right yeah, learning by doing.
Daniera teer Haar:but also believing in what we did was what we found interesting and important at that time and not going in the mainstream of, okay, I need this business card and it needs to mention we do graphic design and of course, now it's more easy because you do it for many years. But I think that's again, again like believing in what you are doing and doing that. Yeah, try to keep on doing that very strongly. And of course then you need a long breath because sometimes it's not always easy. In this whole design field. There are a lot of designers and social media can help you but can also break you again. So it's a challenging time in that sense. And working with labels is also not always super easy. So how to maintain your studio and how to run the business can be challenging. So we do a lot of everything and that makes it how we can do this with our team.
Sarah Gottlieb:So that's, that's nice I think that's a good advice to you know, really stay put and stay true to yourself and not be afraid of listening to your own personal opinion yeah.
Christoph Brach:And then there's, of course, a challenge. When you work with clients, they will also have a strong opinion. They will push you back or they will push you. Work with clients, they will also have a strong opinion. They will push you back or they will push you in a certain direction. That's also what we are still experiencing. I mean, it's not that we say something and it's going to happen. You know, we also have debates about like yeah, we think it should be like that, and then they say we think it should be like this. So what do you do?
Daniera teer Haar:You know, then you keep on, like you know.
Christoph Brach:Ping-ponging. Yeah, indeed Like being diplomatic, trying to have a compromise, but it's also interesting, yeah.
Daniera teer Haar:It's also always good to have discussions about it.
Daniera teer Haar:And yeah, I think also. But that's, of course, the other side of using a lot of color Means also, it takes a lot of extra time, so it's good to be aware for all the people. It takes a lot of extra time, so it's good to be aware for all the people. If you need to get your pontoon swatches and your numbers fixed, of course, if you do black or white, yeah, there are not that many choices, so it's easier done so. But if you have to decide, oh, which yellow, which pink, which blue, which green, yeah, sometimes on the studio I think almost the most discussions we have about using which type of specific color, so it's, it's, of course, what we love to do, but sometimes it can also be the pretty annoying that you think, oh my god, all these colors, it's uh challenging, it's like the pain yeah, yeah for example, now we work on an exhibition design where every wall has a different color.
Christoph Brach:Wow, well, and then yeah that's not totally true, but there are a lot of colors there are a lot of. There are also 12 colors in the exhibition, but if you would have been done three or one yeah, it would have been done already.
Sarah Gottlieb:You know, and now, uh, you need to.
Daniera teer Haar:And then, of course, the translation in colors. If you go analogous or like a paint on the wall and then you go digital and you want to match those colors, yeah, that's again a terrible.
Christoph Brach:Exactly because the signing. You know the text for the objects in the exhibition, they should have the same color on the print than the wall color. So all these have been matched, which is not possible, of course.
Daniera teer Haar:So that's the same. Also, if you look again at the Samans collection, then the glass color is different than the painted color of the backside of the clock. So yeah, of course it's. It is a different material. There are different options and choices and finishes and appearances. The glass is shiny, the metal is matte, so, and all those things create, of course, this whole appearance of the object. But I think that's the thing that also intrigues us. So what happens if you put a high gloss onto something, or matte, or all these different type of finishes and materials where you can place the color on? And that's why, yeah, do it now for so many years, but it's also something we can continue with for the rest of our life, I would say.
Sarah Gottlieb:It's exactly that complexity that Christoph and Daniera talk about, that I love, about colors. That keeps me inspired again and again. And speaking of inspiration, I'm very curious to hear where Christoph and Daniera get their inspiration from. Therefore, I have asked them to share a thing or a place that they find particularly inspiring.
Daniera teer Haar:Yeah, so of course we don't see things, so I have to kind of describe it. But one thing we had to think about is we were on holiday in Normandy, and you have to pronounce the word, because I always say it in the wrong way.
Christoph Brach:It's Mont Saint-Michel. You know the island, a very touristic spot.
Daniera teer Haar:Yeah, and we have two children, two sons, and well we went there. Of course, it's quite a weird space in the middle of nowhere coming out of the water, so it was really great. We have been there I think like 12 years ago or something together, but well, we were running to all these touristic people and shops and like we think, oh my God, what a terrible place this is.
Daniera teer Haar:I, I, I looked at this little cabinet and I saw, like a farmer, little ceramic, uh, puppet or how you say, man or figure figure figure that's a better word, and I think it's part of um the christmas uh staple staple, you know, with maria jesus oh, yeah, yeah and so then, then the farmer.
Christoph Brach:He was so pretty it's Joseph probably, then no, the farmer is the father, it's the dad of Jesus.
Daniera teer Haar:Jesus' dad we found Jesus' dad in Saint-Michel yeah, that's where you need to go, but at least if I describe the color, so it has a very light, fresh yellow and then it's kind of At the base, at the base, the soil. Basically, he has a really deep brown hat and shoes and a bag and a beautiful warm green, I would say.
Christoph Brach:How would you describe it? As a sweater, kind of a green with a lot of yellow in it, and then he has a belt around his belly, and then which is, which is kind of a reddish brown yeah, and then, uh, he wears, uh, yeah, what is it? Kind of pants skirt like pants and in a light blue kind of gray muddy quite a lot of black in the in the blue jesus.
Sarah Gottlieb:Jesus dad was quite a stylish guy.
Daniera teer Haar:Yeah, totally, totally we felt like oh, he looks beautiful, yeah, so so somehow and it's high gloss, so it's glazed in a high gloss and maybe also it's like 10 centimeters high and and maybe also the relation again to my current insight, that this strong relation between shape and color.
Christoph Brach:I mean now we only describe the color, yeah, but it's a, it's a very organic figure. So I mean you, you see, like traces of a nose and eyes, but it's not detailed. No, it's not too detailed, it's, it's, it's almost a very, you know, organic silhouette of that person. So not not too detailed. No fingers, you know, just like surfaces with little detail and little embossing of the you know the folds in his pants. So I think it's a bit like, you know, when you think about the sculpture you had, like Constantin Brancus, the Romanian sculpture, like really kind of, yeah, organic, almost like a monoblock of a shape, but with little details.
Christoph Brach:So again, I think that we talked, of course, so much about the color and when, when you look at scientific research that's also what they say with human perception, it's makes 90 percent within the few first few seconds. If you look at something, yeah, of course the color that attracts your initial attention. But also, again, that you know relation between the color and the shape, I mean it could also be, let's, let's try to imagine the opposite, that it's just really blocky cubes for this farmer figure, it would look totally different still. You know it would be hard and would. And if it would be matte, you know it wouldn't be so sophisticated and in a flowy shape and appearance and that gloss really enhances that flowiness yeah, well, next to this figure, we also have a figure from india and we have a figure from mallorca, and yeah, so we love those little objects.
Daniera teer Haar:But I mean now it's a porcelain one, but it can also be, it can be everything, it can be very daily objects as well. But uh, we love, yeah, you fall in love with the appearance and the color of this certain object, and then, of course, now it's nice with the story where we found it and so a place. I would never expect it to find something so beautiful.
Sarah Gottlieb:So it's, yeah, you always get happy of those little treasures, I would say yeah, and I think, actually, starting out with what I said, that for me I quite like the idea that I look at you as designers who work with color as a material. And now for me, you just described an object where actually it is almost like it's the material of color that you got inspired by.
Daniera teer Haar:Yeah, and also the color composition, the colors they placed together on this figure, I think that it could be almost inspiration for the new Dries van Noten collection or something if you look at it yeah. And, of course, the person who made it is not aware of this and that sometimes or maybe the person is yeah probably not. It's just they pick a few colors.
Christoph Brach:But it was also when you looked at the whole setting of the other figures. Of course there's Benoît Saint-Marie there's one of the kings, there was Jesus. We didn't pick any of the others because they didn't have that. They didn't hit the sweet spot like this farmer figure had.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah, yeah, it's like again back to the perfect vinaigrette.
Christoph Brach:It's the color combination that made it for you yeah, yeah, and the shape, as we said, like maybe maria was too detailed or whatever and jesus was too small and too recognizable that, oh, it's baby jesus. You know that there's been this magic formula that worked with his little farmer.
Daniera teer Haar:So never thought we could talk so long about this figure.
Christoph Brach:No, but it's true, it's like an art history class, you know. And that's the funny thing also, when we give lectures.
Sarah Gottlieb:We'll do another episode just on Jesus' dad. Yeah, exactly.
Christoph Brach:But you can analyze things in retrospect and again, that is the spontaneity and the intuition that I'm talking about. Of course, I can imagine if people are not trained as creatives and have no passion or or feeling with colors, it's really hard for them to do that for their homes, for example, whatever, or for their, for their wardrobe, for the dresses. But again, you know, if, if we would have this interior plan of which colors are fitting, what? Our sofa is brown and the curtains are the same, then you would not step into this shop and you would find this figure, because, I mean, we didn't analyze this figure, you just go in it, you look at it within a few seconds, you see it and you feel something about it.
Christoph Brach:And there's no. It's the same, like as we say if you want to catch a ball, you don't think about catching a ball. You know it's your reflex that does it, and I think that's something that we also try to embrace as creatives.
Sarah Gottlieb:Yeah, to be intuitive in your search of inspiration,
Christoph Brach:yeah also when it comes to projects.
Christoph Brach:You know like we are also are tutors at the Design Academy in Arnhem and have been in design educations in the Netherlands for like roughly 14 years and when we try to navigate together with our students through their projects, the learning is always two-sided right. I mean, it's not just that we tell them what to do, you also learn from them and you learn through the processes. And there is this thing you will never, I believe never, get to a good result. I mean, it sounds really black and white now, but anyway, just try to say it. You will never get to a good result by only analyzing it, making plans, draw exactly what you think of. You know, there's always this aspect of your hands of sketching of coincidences, coincidences, brainstorms, talking about something, seeing suddenly something unexpected, walking through the park, getting an idea, whatever you know like. But you have to enable yourself and your process or your peers or your clients or whatever, to to encounter these moments. But if you just sit and you overthink stuff, I'm hoping you will make this golden egg yeah exactly the golden egg.
Christoph Brach:it's hard work. You know it's digging it up and keep on digging and finding it somewhere in the bushes. You know the golden egg lays always somewhere where you don't expect it to lay.
Sarah Gottlieb:I think that's the perfect place to stop our conversation. The golden egg is never in the place you think it is no, no, no no, no, exactly. Yeah, I really want to say thank you to both of you, because it was such a nice chat about colors and I can't wait to share it.
Christoph Brach:Nice, great Thank you. Yeah, it was a fun conversation.
Sarah Gottlieb:I think it's impossible not to be inspired by christoph and daniero's approach to color, and one day I will have to own a colorful figure of jesus father myself. Now all that remains is to hear what our musician devin has gotten out of the ochre yellow color.
Sarah Gottlieb:Hi Devon, I'm back
Devon Williams:you know, what I realized is that one of my favorite t-shirts is ochre yellow really, last time we met up you were like I hate yellow I know that, and then I realized that's the shirt I wore when felix was born oh, so now I'm like I love it. Yeah, I learned a lot about myself in our last interview. I've changed. I have a yellow tattoo.
Sarah Gottlieb:You know this is like therapy, so you have worked on interpreting ochre yellow into a piece of music.
Devon Williams:Yeah.
Sarah Gottlieb:Do you want to tell me how it went?
Devon Williams:Yeah, after we talked, I think I realized that there was more. I think I was being a little rigid.
Sarah Gottlieb:In what you said About that you hated yellow yeah.
Devon Williams:I do, anyway. So I had an idea of what I Because we talked about leaves and sunsets and all this stuff and autumn and autumn, and so I took that and I went home and I had an idea of trying to embrace the autumn and I was thinking of a couple songs that felt really like autumny. And there's a song by America called Sister Golden Hair. It's a super American song.
Sarah Gottlieb:Well, obviously the band is called America.
Devon Williams:Yeah, they were called America. They also did the song for the Last Unicorn, which is like a really good 80s cartoon Anyway. It's a really like there's some slide guitar but it's like really uptempo, like sort of 70s country Anyway, and it felt very like warm and it says golden in it and I was like, oh, this is very. It just came up on my it was serendipitous because it just came up while I was listening to music, yeah, um, and so I was like, oh, slide guitar, like it just felt very, oh that's. And so then I picked up my guitar while I was playing with my son and I was like trying something and it didn't really make sense.
Devon Williams:This is like pretty detailed, all right how can I?
Sarah Gottlieb:is this? I'm not, I'm just looking at stuff on like technical stuff.
Sarah Gottlieb:I'm sorry
Devon Williams:no, no,
Devon Williams:Erm
Devon Williams:I'm bored now.
Devon Williams:No, I'm trying to think of what's the interesting part.
Devon Williams:I intended to do one thing and there were two ideas of like you take a guitar and you have like a warm guitar sound. But then I also had this idea of like a synthy keyboardy thing. We call it like a wash or like a pad where, like you can play like a chord. Yeah, and it's just like and it just feels warm.
Sarah Gottlieb:Is that like fussy? Is it because the sound is kind of fussy? Is that what makes it warm?
Devon Williams:I think what makes it warm is that it's like we like call it a pad. So if you play a chord it's sustained, so it goes for a while.
Sarah Gottlieb:It stays like sort of at the same just like being stroked, yeah, or like wearing like a really warm blanket, but if, and I think of that one, I think of I like wearing a warm blanket.
Devon Williams:That's, I like that idea but it's what it is warm tonally yeah and so it feels um. Let's call ochre yellow amber from now on, because I don't like yellow, I don't like the. Maybe I don't like yellow, maybe I don't like the word yellow, let's just call it ochre. Let's call it amber.
Sarah Gottlieb:But amber is more brown and we know you love brown. That's what.
Devon Williams:I'm going, anyway. So I ditched the guitar and started messing with the keyboard and that changed the direction, and then I just and then I think I stopped thinking about it, and then I just Went with it.
Devon Williams:Went with it went with it, yeah, and I I was actually really I was having a lot of fun, I was really happy with it and I think what I learned after I recorded. I actually went back to some other music that I'm working on. I was like, oh, why can't I just be more, you know, free with that music? So I think it was so I thank you for the opportunity to you had a really nice experience with the process.
Devon Williams:I really did and I came together really like quickly, or at least time went by quickly, which I really enjoyed, and during a busy work day I think it was really appreciated to have freedom of mind.
Devon Williams:And last thing I want to say about yellow yeah or whatever the fuck it's mustard, right, it's mustardy yeah and I think I had in my mind that there would be an electric guitar that was ugly and mustardy and I I didn't know what that was, I didn't know if it would be like um, but um, you probably. I don't know if it'll come out the way I hear it, but when I plugged the guitar and the levels were all the way up, like it was peaking, and it was really like, and I was like, oh, that's mustard, and so I used it as like um so mustard accident but it was in, it was like true um yeah, representation, it was like intended accident it was intended.
Devon Williams:It was like I'll show you ugly, there you go, ochre, and so I left it in to show that even ugly things can be beautiful.
Sarah Gottlieb:Oh wow, and on that note, I really think we should hear your piece of ochre yellow.
Devon Williams:Okay, a one, a two, a one two, three.
Sarah Gottlieb:at home, plug in your headphones and turn up the volume and get comfortable and close your eyes, because here comes the sound of Ochre Yellow.
Daniera teer Haar:Thank you.
Sarah Gottlieb:Thank you very, very much for listening, as always. I really, really appreciate it. If you like what you heard, please give the podcast a rating or a review. That's really helpful because it helps other people to find the show as well. So I'm told something about algorithms, and if you are curious to see more about the work of Raw Color after hearing about them in this episode, check it out on my website, sarahgodlipdk, under the podcast section, and this episode was sponsored by Montana Furniture.
